One of my hobbies was watch collecting and I used to have a good collection of wristwatches, especially Rolex watches. To complement my hobby, I had an internet forum called TURF which is the acronym for The Ultimate Rolex Forum. I moderated TURF from 1998 to 2001 and it was a very exciting time for me because the board managed to gather thousands of watch lovers from all over the world and in particular many Rolex collectors and experts. To concentrate on my photography, I stopped watch collecting in 2001and sold most of my watches, after having being an avid watch collector for more than 30 years. I also stopped moderating TURF and started Penang Talk, later Taiping Talk and then Ipoh Talk.
Below you will also see a list of selected messages written by the former participants of TURF and later archived as TURF Nuggets. They make up one of the best sources of info available about watches in general and Rolex in particular. Whether you have in interest in watches or not, you will find them enjoyable to read. Check out the island where I live. They call it the Pearl of the Orient and where Rolex watches are tax free. Click here.
During my Rolex collecting days and also when I was moderating TURF, one of the most asked questions was how to tell a fake Rolex from a real one. Well, I would like to start by saying it is getting harder all the time but there are a few fundamental steps which one can follow to avoid being duped. To start with, please remember that modern Rolex watches have no "clear casebacks" or "skeleton backs". These skeleton backs allow you to view the watch's mechanism or movement. I remember someone posted a message to TURF saying that a couple of vintage Rolex watches (circa 1930) have clear casebacks. I have never seen such watches but it is sufficient for you to remember that as a general rule, Rolex does not make skeleton back cases in their production watches and so, if you see one, it is most likely a fake. Once when I was in Hong Kong, I saw a "Yachtmaster" with a clear caseback and it was obviously a fake and a bad one at that. Avoid all "Rolexes" with clear casebacks.
If you see a Rolex with a date function, check out the magnification of the date. The real Rolex has the date magnified more than the fake .This is especially true in the Submariner with date and the Explorer II. However, please note that the Seadweller is an exception, where the magnification is minimal. If you can manage to get a real Rolex and a fake one, a side-by-side comparison will show you the obvious difference. Take a good look at my Explorer II on top of this page. The magnification of the date should be something as large as that.
If you see a Rolex with an "engraved caseback", it is most likely a fake because Rolex does not engrave their casebacks except for the Seadweller where the words "Rolex Oyster Original Gas Escape Valve" are engraved in a circular manner. However, please note that all Rolexes have a hologram sticker affixed to the caseback and the new hologram sticker is " three dimensional" which allows it to be viewed from all angles. The fake sticker is "flat" and can easily be distinguished from the real hologram sticker.
A fake Daytona often has a shorter minute hand and the three registers will not work .The real Rolex Daytona can be used as a stop watch. It is not easy to make a counterfeit Rolex Daytona and I have yet to see one that will confuse me.
The latest Rolexes have a "crown" or "coronet" etched on the watch crystal at the six o'clock position.
If you have a set of Rolex serial numbers, it is possible to determine whether a Rolex is a fake by checking the serial number engraved on the watch. The serial number of a fake or real Rolex is engraved (etched) between the lugs. However, to do this, you will have to know what these numbers signify and your local Rolex dealer can probably help you. It is enough for you to know that those numbers are often "badly engraved" on the watch and most fakes from the same supplier carry the same number.
Okay, that's it for the time being. I will add more details here from time to time and will also try to post some pics.
If you would like to say something about Rolex, use the form below:-
How to sell your Rolex by S King
There are a lot of folks who wish Rolex harm by Unclesam
Buying a Rolex from abroad (US residents please read) by Mikel
You're wrong about Rolex by BobJ
Story of my Rolex watches by Matthias
Are we shallow? Frans Hens and others
My Submariner review by Frans Hens
Is that a REAL Rolex? Courtesy and Sensitivity by John F Kennedy
TURF re-opens! includes some house rules to posting at TURF by kayes
Russians, Rolexes and the Internet by James
The chronometer certification is irrelevant by John F Kennedy
I have a Comex SeaDweller by R Day
Using a GMT Master by Devin Winton
Choosing between Rolex models by John F Kennedy
Tanks are not pretty by Rolecks Puhlease
TURF it doesn't get any better than this by Art
Removing glass cyclop from sapphire crystal by Frank Ferrara
My thoughts on the fake Rolex phenomenon by Remington
How the Mk XII got me my Explorer 1 by Siapa
Buying your 1st Rolex by Rolecks Puhlease
That Explorer 1 Review by Rolecks Puhlease
Buying on eBay by John Ireland
The Zenith of Rolex by Rolecks Puhlease
Understated Value by Rolecks Puhlease
Caution is the word (or authenticating a Rolex) by Bergzy
Understanding the power of the internet by Gilbert Martinez
Different Oyster models by Olaf
How to really clean your Rolex! by John M Polston
Why we like TURF by John Raba & John L
Legal Beagles Neutered by Rolecks Puhlease
Differences between GMT/GMT II by Olaf
Women wearing Rolexes by John Ireland
Discussing the virtues & vices of watch dealers by kayes
Military Submariner - British & others by John. F. Kennedy
How TURF led me to my Rolex by Raul
How TURF led me to my Rolex by Tangent
GMT with a suit? Or Is chivalry comatose? --- Rudy Venturi & John F. Kennedy
Review of 16519 white gold Daytona by Sir Rex of Vantage
Which is better? 3135 or 3000? by Olaf
Buying over the net by John F. Kennedy
Regrets? I've had a few (or Subs & Sea-Dwellers) by Rolecks Puhlease
Buying Rolex in Singapore by W Leong
How to get rich collecting watches by a few Turfers
Meeting Rolex General Director Mr. Jaques Duchene by Nick Garcia Creighton
A Jewel is an anti-friction device by Rolecks Puhlease
Some questions about the James Bond Sub by David
Small town boy goes to the city by Stephan
No Way! (or Rolex in Japan) by Rolecks Puhlease
10 Silly and Trivial Questions About Rolex by Ed Heliosz
NEWEST Sea Dweller by Rolecks Puhlease
A clarification for Patrick by Jay Bond
An interesting thread on Tudors...4 posts --- Albert, John F. Kennedy, Max
A technical review (or why Odets is wrong) by Robban
Let's do some arithmetic by Frans Hens
Kayes...thanks so much...more by Richard Paige
More news for Turfers - please read by kayes
Strap on a Rolex by John Ireland
New Rolex bracelets by Gary S .
Rolex service information by Tom Gref
Early Sea-Dweller & 007 Subs by John F. Kennedy
Rolex servicing - where Turf can help by John F. Kennedy
GMT I versus GMT II by John Quinn
Pre-owned Rolexes & cost of refurbishment by John F. Kennedy
Vintage Bubbleback by John Quinn
Rolex Books - Who's right after all? by Copernicus
Fakes & Integrity by John F. Kennedy
Exact time on your Rolex? by Olaf
Chalk & Cheese (White Gold or Platinum) by John Quinn
Current production Rolex movements by Olaf
What age to own a Rolex - a reply by Carlos
Rolex Air King by Matthew K.A.
White Gold President by Gary S .
Daytona Strap & Bracelet Not Interchangeable by kayes
Submariner & Sea Dweller Bracelets by Olaf
GMT Master - a classic by C. Veltman
Rolex Quartz Movement by Gary S .
What is a Swiss Watch? by Frans Hens
Talking Points - a Rolex service book by C. Veltman
Parts for Vintage Rolex Watches by C. Veltman
Rolex Bubbleback by C. Veltman
Tudor Submariner by John F. Kennedy
Simplicity versus Complexity by John F. Kennedy
Sea Dweller - The Habitat Watch by John F. Kennedy
Accessorizing your Rolex by John Quinn
How to sell your Rolex
Posted by S. King ® , Dec 09,2000,09:46
Well, let's see, after laying out the cash for a watch, paying booth rental ($140), waking up at 5 am to make the show set-up deadline. Standing in the hot Miami sun for 8+ hours and fending off dealers who belittle me because my prices are too high, I eventually (within 2 or 3 shows) will find a retail buyer who'll give me about $200 ~ $300 more than I paid. So, to answer your question, $1100 ~ $2000 is the retail market price, depending upon condition and accessories. If there is any polishing or repairs, my watchmaker takes a little piece of this. I might make a little more on E-Bay which involves taking photos for 1 hr., processing the photos on the computer (another 30 mins), uploading the photos, writing a description, creating the auction, answering numerous e-mails and praying the high-bidder won't be a flake and eventually remits payment (still waiting almost 1 month for payment on a recent $2500 E-Bay sale).
What's that you say? You have no avenue/desire to sell at shows? E-Bay stinks? Then just put an ad in the paper! Your phone will ring at 5.00 am from every dealer across the country (who will also badger you about prices), then your phone will ring the rest of the day and every nut-flake within 200 miles who wants, but cannot afford, a Rolex will grill you endlessly about everything from your watch to their current (lack of) finances (i.e. Will you take payments?). Finally, you arrange a meeting at your bank (don't forget to strap on the .38 so you don't get jacked in the parking lot. This IS Miami, home of the still-at-large Rolex Bandit) and meet the buyer (a well-dressed gentleman in a suit) who presents a legitimate-looking certified bank check for the full amount, no questions asked. You turn over the watch and shake hands, then go to his bank to cash the check, only to be told it is counterfeit (this really happened to an associate) Nevermind, I'll sell it to a friend. My buddy has always admired my Sub. THREE YEARS after he purchases the Sub, it stops working. He sends it to Rolex USA and gets the bill for $500. You will be reminded about that $500 every time you run into your buddy. Whew, all this to make $200! I must be crazy... If you have any doubts as to my estimates, please take your watch to a local jeweler, watch seller or pawn shop and ask how much they'll pay. Make sure to tell them how much you originally paid (full-blown retail), how sentimental the watch is to you and how it keeps time to within (+/- 2 sec. a century). When they're done yawning, their offer will remain the same. Please post their quotes here and we'll compare numbers. Sorry for appearing so cynical, but whenever I post dealer prices on these boards, I always get hate-mail saying my quotes are out of line (low) and I must be trying to rip-off unsuspecting sellers. I have done my homework.
There are alot of folks in this world that wish Rolex harm
Posted by Unclesam ® , Nov 14,2000,22:46
In an almost immediate rebuttal, independent of Rolex, another Rolex, a submariner, was taken to a non-Rolex master craftsman watch repair facility, and the owner of the watch and the owner of the facility proceeded to tear the watch down, photographing each part of the dissection. You will also see these pictures on the web. But because the master watchmaker was impressed, it was not a man bites dog story like the one you read, and so has been lost in the storage alcoves of the web somewhere. Long before the web, the old saw was, believe about half of what you see, and none of what you hear, or something to that effect. still true today.
Now that a bad Rolex story written by a non-owner of a Rolex has got you discouraged, please go to other makers watch forums. Read about the Patek advisory that you should not manually wind their autowind watches more than five revs by hand or risk damaging their autowind mech. (with 7 rolexes, and one winder, I would be SOL if that were the case for Rolexes.) Read about the heartburn one gets when you buy a $48,000 Lange Datograph, or whatever their fancy name is for an expensive chrono,and then find that the owner had to send it back to the factory because somebody pushed the chronograph buttons too many times, and they stopped working. a couple of stories below, you will find a recalibrating chrono story. Not rolex of course. but one very famous chronograph ebauche (motor) the Valjoux 7750, used in every watch from $995 to $100,000 pieces, uses lever actuation of the chrono module when the pushers are depressed, and that lever gets out of adjustment, and the chrono registers go weird. Rolex uses a completely different, and more expensive design, the column actuated. I'm not a watchmaker, don't ask me how it works, I just know it works perfectly. Read about the guys who buy exotic brands, and then find no one in the country knows how to fix them. Then read of THREE Rolex factory repair centers in the US alone!
So why do people want to tear down Rolex? Why do people trash any leader? If you're a dealer, and don't have the Rolex franchise, you see all your brands go begging, while the Rolex dealer can't keep many of his models in stock. If you are a buyer, new from a dealer, but purchased other than Rolex, you thought you got a good deal, until you saw your watch sold by a gray marketeer on the internet for 65% less new than what you paid for it. If you are a buyer, and bought other than Rolex, and then tried to sell, then you probably experienced a major loss on the deal, if you could even sell at all, while noticing that Rolex prices remain high, and stable. If you are a watch collector, then you probably find the inner workings of a Rolex about as exciting as your Grandma's underwear. But Grandma wore those underwear not to be stylish and keep up with the latest fad, she wore them because they served the intended purpose, and because they lasted. But there are no seals from Geneva 'arfing under a Rolex'es knickers. I think them Geneva seals are arfing at their owners. I believe if Rolex made watches in the US, they would make them in Lake Woebegon. Where all the women are strong, all the men are good looking, and all the children are above average. Good solid watches from good solid people. But so boring that we listen every day for more escapades about them!
If you want a watch that will last longer than you, is tuned to chronometer accuracy (and most importantly, stays that way), but if you make a serious boo-boo to, can be restored to new condition anywhere in the world by factory service centers. then Rolex is your watch. It took me about $5,000 on lost money trading other watches to get all the above knocked into my head. And hell's bells, I even started out with my first expensive watchbeing a Rolex! hello, my name is Unclesam, and I'm (now) a Rolaholic.
Buying a Rolex from abroad (US residents please read)
READ THIS IF YOU ARE CONSIDERING AN OVERSEAS PURCHASE
Posted by Mikel ® , Nov 02,2000,20:34
Are you a first time Rolex buyer looking for the best place and best deal on a Rolex? Are you considering purchasing a Rolex and having it shipped into the US? Did you know customs can and will seize your watch?
Read about my personal experience. I was a first time Rolex buyer. The watch I wanted was nowhere to be found locally. I wanted to save money but that was not my first priority. I researched all the forums, emailed others for their recommendations and one Europe dealer kept coming up with high marks and praise. I contacted the dealer who assured me that he could get me the new watch in a reasonable timeframe and at a slight discount. After adding a percentage for putting it on a credit card and figuring a possible amount for customs it wound up being 15% or so off retail. He also assured me that customs was not a problem. I did not research that point as I assumed he knew what he was doing as he had been in business for quite along time. My watch finally was shipped.
First I will explain how it was shipped. The watch was shipped separately via UPS. When this was done the seller informed me that the box and papers were each shipped separately. I thought this was odd. About one week after the watch was shipped I received a call from customs. They told me to fax them a copy of the receipt for what was in the box. The seller sent me a receipt showing the value of the watch and at the top of the receipt it said, “ Watch being returned after repair, for personal use only and not for resale”. I thought this was odd too but faxed it on to customs. Their reply… here’s the name and phone number of the Rolex attorneys. You need a release from them to get the watch. They also said that they have never seen Rolex give anyone a release. They seized the watch. I later got the box then the papers.I had no idea that there would be a customs problem buying a watch and was never informed that there could be but there sure was. Rolex has tight controls with customs on inbound watches.
Fortunately the seller refunded my money. I sent the papers and box back to him. I found an authorized US dealer from another acquaintance from the forum that had the watch I was looking for and even gave me a small discount. Wound up costing me only a couple hundred dollars more this way. I would have gladly paid three times as much to avoid all the hassle and worrying. I just wish there was a post such as this when I first started looking to purchase that first Rolex.
You're wrong about Rolex....
Re:I. Bystander, you’re wrong about Rolex, Walt and me....
Posted by BobJ ® , Sep 30,2000,19:25
Dear I. Bystander, Nice post. You write very well, and persuasively. You obviously possess penetrating and subtle intelligence. Which is why I am so surprised that you don't seem to perceive the difference between Walt's article and his jarring conclusion stuck at the end of it. If you really cannot see that, that conclusion does not belong at the end of that article, then you must have your own reasons for not wanting to.
You say there have ben no technical rebuttals to Walt's article. But I listed three very technical rebuttals in my post. Two are by one of Walt's students and one is by a micro-mechanical engineer. They are posted on the TURF forum in the TURF NUGGETS section. And if you care to look around you can find several others. You should also read the TZ interview with Alexander Linz on the TZ homepage. He is at the very pinnacle of Horological knowledge in Europe. He had high praise for Rolex engineering, reliability and quality. The fact of the matter is that Walt stands alone in his myopic and hostile criticism of Rolex. The body of his article is fine but his conclusions aren't, and he has drawn a line at an extreme end of the spectrum.
Watch experts, watch makers and millions of Rolex owners all around the world all stand on one side, Walt and a handful of uncritical followers stand on the other. You sneeringly and condescendingly dismiss me as someone desperately trying to feel good about a watch given to me by my family. Well... in the beginning, right after reading Walt's article, there was some truth to that. I wasn't desperate, but I was deflated, confused and wondering if I had an overpriced hunk of junk on my wrist. What newbie wouldn't be, after reading Walt's article? But I've learned so much more since then and that is no longer the case.
I treasure my Rolex for two main reasons. One, is the love with which it was given. I think of the trouble my wife went through just to locate an Explorer (it took two months of secret phone calls all over the country), the thoughtfulness, the excitement she and my daughter had in giving it to me, and, as a token of all this, I would cherish it even if it were an Omega, a Hamilton or a god-awful Gucci (although I'd probably cherish that last one in a drawer somewhere!). The other reason I treasure my Rolex is that it is such a fine, fine timepiece, in some ways the best, certainly the best for me.
Among some, who read Walt's article uncritically, and whose knowledge of Rolex does not extend far beyond that article, there is a feeling that it is not permissible to call Rolex a fine timepiece. But is this so? Let us take a look. Suppose we divide all of time into two parts. Let's call them Before Walt's article and After Walt's article. Before Walt's article Rolexes were known around the world to be beautiful, rugged, reliable, accurate watches that would last a lifetime or more. Then came Walt's article. And now what are Rolexes? They are still beautiful, rugged, reliable, accurate watches that will last a lifetime or more!
The body of Walt's article confirms this, and even his inexplicably hostile conclusion doesn't dispute ANY of it! So I feel comfortable saying that before Walt's article, Rolexes were fine timepieces,and after Walt's article they are still fine timepieces. Are Rolex movements perfect? No. But what makes them such great watches is that they are designed to operate flawlessly in less than perfect conditions, and to do it for a long long time. You really should read an Horologium article by Walt entitled, Jessica's Cornavin Dolphin. It is about a watch that has a movement that is a cheap copy of a Rolex movement. It had had no service or cleaning for 24 years, the movement was filthy and wet, it was periodically banged on the edge of a table to dislodge a loose hour marker that would get stuck under the second hand! But the amazing thing is that after 24 years of this abuse, this cheap copy of a Rolex movement was running at +2 seconds per day!!! Well within COSC chronometer standards, and actually better than most brand new Pateks!!! How is this possible? According to Walt, there is no doubt that sturdy simple thick construction provides an advantage in this regard (excellent running performance under poor conditions. And this: Everything in the Cornavin Dolphin is thicker than anything I've seen in a contemporary Swiss watch -- except for the Rolex Explorer that I examined several months ago. He also said, detail after detail reminded me of the Explorer. No doubt the creators of the Dolphin had a Rolex in hand.
And speaking of Pateks, here is another interesting quote from the article: If I'd taken the dirt from this single watch and distributed it evenly among 100 Pateks, I am quite sure it would have brought all 100 to a dead stop.!!! Does this mean that movement is 100 times more robust than a Patek? If the cheap copy is capable of this amazing performance, imagine what we can expect from the real thing! To fault a Rolex movement because it is not finished to the level of a Patek is like criticizing a Sherman tank because it is not polished to the level of a Rolls Royce. They are two different things, designed to fulfill two different roles. You can appreciate the Rolls Royce for what it is and what it does, and also appreciate the Sherman tank for what it is and what it does (it can take abuse that would bring 100 Rolls Royces to stop). Which is better? It depends on what you want it for. You could get out your microscope and spend the rest of your life finding imperfections in the tank, but in the end it could chew right through 100 Rolls Royces without even burping. I used to think that I really wanted a Patek because it was the best, but would have to settle for a Rolex because I couldn't afford the Patek. But I have learned so much more about watches since then. I still appreciate the art, craft and beauty of a movement like a Patek, and there is still a part of me that yearns for one, but I've come to see that it is kind of like buying a very expensive and beautiful painting that you can never take out of the box to look at. You may derive a certain satisfaction from knowing that there is, indeed, beauty inside that box, and you may have seen photographs of other similar paintings, but, in the end, you are paying a lot of money for beauty that you can never see or appreciate (unless you are a watchmaker with a microscope and want to take your Patek apart). You pay five times the price of a Rolex for beauty you cannot see. You do not get better performance. You do not get better accuracy. You do not get better reliability or ruggedness, in fact, you get less. You get a thin, delicate, fussy, high maintenance movement that you can wear on special occasions or in a very sedate lifestyle. I live an active outdoors lifestyle on the Oregon coast where it is often wet and rainy. (you know how to tell when it's summer on the Oregon coast? -- the rain gets warm!) And the more I have learned about watches, the more deeply I have come to appreciate that my Rolex is the perfect watch for me. I am not desperately trying to feel good, I'm overjoyed! And what is even nicer, is that my elation is now based on Understanding and not Ignorance. Otherwise I might have to start calling myself I. BobJackson. With serene contentment, Bob
Story of my Rolex Watches
Posted by Matthias ® , Jun 14,2000,11:25
Dear Turfers, as it is the first time I attend TURF please let me introduce myself. I´m from Germany (therefore please excuse my english) and since my 15th birthday (today I´m 40) I´m collecting wrist watches. Rolex was always my favorite watch, but I was also and am still interested in Omega, Breitling and all type of Chronographs. So I started 1975 with a Breitling Chrono-Matic Ref. 2110 which is still in my hands today and it is keeping perfect time after an overhaul at Breitling in Switzerland. My first Rolex came in 1979 and was a gift from my father for finishing school with the German so called “Abitur”, which gives the right to start at University. The Rolex chosen by me was absolutely uncommon at that time: it was an Explorer II Ref. 1655/0 with an engraving on the back “Abitur 1979”. The dealer where it was bought (Bucherer in St. Moritz) had to take firstly a look into the catalogue because he only knew GMT´s, Sub´s etc.. But after looking to the Explorer II which he had in stock he was of the opinion that it is a great choice as it is not an “everybodies Rolex”. The reason for me choosing just this model was a book from the famous mountain climber Reinhold Messner about his solo attempt to the Nanga Parbat, where I saw pictures with Messner wearing an Explorer II. It was strange to me, that Messner advertised at the same time for Rolex the new Oysterquartz. Well, my Explorer II 1655 is on my wrist today and still keeping time, but I think it has to be overhauled at Rolex in Cologne, as the amplitude of the balance wheel is too low now. By the way, I own nearly all Rolex catalogues and several other booklets since 1975 (same for Omega and Breitling), but mostly in German language. Therefore may be I can be of help for answering questions concerning Rolexes from that date on. If you still have some time, I will shortly tell the stories of my other Rolex watches.
In 1983 I bought my second Rolex and once again my choice was an uncommon Rolex at that time. It was a Daytona Ref. 6263/0 with a white dial, rare black Daytona character and Valjoux 72 caliber. Comment from the dealer at that time (Bucherer in Interlaken): “Why do you buy a Rolex watch with handwinding movement and no date? You are the first one asking for a Daytona since the last 3 years.” Doesn´t this sounds strange from the todays point of view? Nevertheless I bought it together with a special fitted jubilee bracelet (also uncommon) and an engraving of my initials “MS” on the back. The Daytona was so unusual to the dealer, that he gave incorrectly a chronometer certificate with it, but at that time only the 18k Daytonas were certified chronometers. Unfortunately I sold the watch 1989 obviously in mental illness to a vintage watch dealer in Pforzheim and the only things I still have in my hands are the box and the papers (“chronometer”/guarantee certificate, instruction booklet, invoice). Believe me, I will never sell one of my watches again!!
My next Rolex was a vintage Datejust 1601 with white dial from the late 60´s (no hack, no quickset) bought 1991 which is still keeping perfect time after an overhaul at Rolex in Cologne (these people are doing a great job, especially their watchmaker Mr.Buchholz). A more sad story is about the Day-Date 18038 (silver dial, single quickset). My father bought this watch in 1982 at Bucherer in St. Moritz after several years of my continuous recommendations to him for buying a Day-Date. Maybe he was tired about any further recommendation and therefore he bought the watch. He wore the Day-Date only on special occasions, as his daily watch was a 1978 TTDatejust. Therefore the Day-Date is today in nearly new condition. Unfortunately my father died in April 2000 and 4 weeks before he gave the Day-Date to me for keeping it well. I will do so and just in the same way as my father, I wear it only on special occasions.
My last Rolex is only 3 weeks old. In remembering my old Daytona I went to see whether I can get one of the last Daytonas with the 4030 caliber before they are out of stock. Once again Bucherer/Switzerland was of help. In Basel they reserved for me a TT Daytona 16523 with steel coloured dial and P serial number. I went there, was inspired and bought the watch. It is keeping perfect time gaining within one week only 3 seconds. Even my Zenith El Primero with nearly the same movement (but not the same balance wheel and frequency) doesn´t have the same accuracy. It looses one second per day (which is also very good). In my opinion the 4030 is the best chrono movement at the moment due to the combination of the perfect chrono mechanism from Zenith with the perfect balance wheel from Rolex. The new 4130 caliber has to show, whetherit can be the real successor of the 4030.
Hopefully my story was not boring to you and once again I apologize for my english. May be there will be the opportunity for attending TURF once again. For the time being Best Regards Matthias
PS. Can anybody tell me how to incorporate a scan into a message? Unfortunately I´m not very familiar with Internet forums. Sorry for that.
Are we shallow?
Posted by Frans Hens ® , Jun 17,2000,15:52
Well, are we? Apart from owning a Rolex (and in some cases, multiple Rolex's and other watches), most of us seem to like the finer things in life. (With me being NO exception). Fine cigars, whiskeys, cars, etc. I suspect that most of us earn an above average income and thus are able to enjoy the perks that come with it. But is it a coincidence that many of us are into Cuban cigars, Single Malt Scotch, handcrafted fountain pens and fine, automatic Swiss watches? Do we like these things, mainly because they're expensive and give the owner/user an aura of wealth or just because we thoroughly enjoy them? Though one, eh? One can steer oneself in safe waters by stating that most of you're acquaintances never heard of Omas, Highland Park or Partagas. Or, in my case, Hooper's Grand Reserva 1937, Krell, Kiseki or Burmester. (Puzzling?). Rolex, off course, is a totally different matter; the whole world knows Rolex. No excuseshere, I'm afraid. For me, life is too short to forego on these things. It sounds incredibly shallow, but I just love enjoying life to the full. And that means that I carry aSubmariner Date around my wrist and having a glass of Four Roses single barrel right now. On the other hand, I put in many hours, studied in my free time and always made the extra effort. It didn't come by accident, and that's what some of my friends tend to forget. So, what's you're story, you're thoughts on this?
TURF'er forever, Frans.
Good Point
Posted by John Graves ® , Jun 17,2000,16:40
I must say that I have had similar thoughts. I am extremely picky about what I wear, what I drive, what I drink, and where I live. Luckily I just now achieved an income status where I can do and have this stuff. Now if only I could find the right woman:-)
True meaning of shallow...........
Posted by iavina ® , Jun 17,2000,16:47
My friend, shallow means without depth, just above any given surface. If you live you life without pursuit of excellence in any field or endeavor, you are shallow. If you find your self appreciating that which is made or produced with care, quality and even a passionate love, you are not shallow. A shallow man/women does NOT care what comes across his life-they only eat, drink, shit, sleep and then die. Always strive for better things, and anyone who says wearing a Rolex is shallow does not understand anything and should be looked upon as a child, innocent and yet to learn. One more thing. How many times have we heard about regret? I should have donethis, I should have said that, I should have bought that Orange hand EX II ref. 1655 in 1978 when they were only $500 list!
I don't like the word connoisseur because it sounds...
Posted by chris k ® , Jun 17,2000,16:53
Pretentious. From Merriam-Webster: one who *enjoys* with discrimination and appreciation of subtleties emphasis mine. But that's what it's all about (for me anyhow). I started with a La Unica, a (very) used Volkswagon, Dewer's and a badly made Hamilton. Cigars, cars, scotch and watches fascinated me and I chased the high. I'm up to scheming the import of Montecristos, a (not so new) Mercedes, The Macallan 18 (when I can find it) and my first Rolex (after having gone through any number of other Swiss watches and spending years with my Omegas). Worse still is that each of these interests has many higher levels that I have yet to probe. Will I? Who knows? I don't have any friends who share or care about *all* of these things. I have some who care much more than I do about “some” of these things. No one but my wife and close friends know what I drink or smoke. As far as I can tell, my watch is only of interest to those folks who know me and ask as an ice-breaker what are you wearing today? The car, well, how can you be discreet with a car? Heck- there are million other things that I or any of us could also be into-- Art, travel, kitchens, book collecting, flying, horses, boats, etc., etc. You pick and choose what's important. I don't think I'm shallow, and I know that most of my friends and family aren't aware of many of my interests. I guess the point is: I'm just trying to get me some enjoyment with discrimination and appreciation of the subtleties. Rationalization? I don't know. Maybe.
I don't think it's necessarily shallow to appreciate quality...
Posted by Paul-V. ® , Jun 17,2000,17:54
I think that if you work hard in life, you should be entitled to some of the finer things in life. Right now, I've not yet achieved the plateau in my life (still got one semester of law school left), and am living fairly hand to mouth. Yet I've still managed to eek out enough for my watch. If you think about it ANYONE can afford a Rolex, it's just a matter of putting priorities first. Most people would rather shell the money out on a car, rent, or what have you. With me, and in my opinion most other Turfers, we go for Rolex not necessarily because its a status symbol, but because we can recognize the history and the craftsmanship behind the brand. Regards.
Not shallow (more)
Posted by Otto ® , Jun 17,2000,19:23
I love to wear a Rolex watch because unlike a house or car, the watch is always with me. When I wear a Rolex watch, I feel like I am wearing a small piece of perfection in an imperfect world. I know this is an illusion, and perhaps silly, but sometimes when things get hectic and out of synch, I look at that watch and see constancy in the midst of chaos. Is that silly? Maybe. Maybe not. And, I also just like the look and feel of the watch. It's as if I have a small piece of museum art on my wrist. Is there some part of me that sees it as a status symbol? Maybe. If so, I like to think the watch, at least to me, represents accomplishment, not elitism. When I look at my Rolex, I remember how hard I worked to be able to afford the watch. I know I don't really need this kind of external feedback, but I suppose I enjoy it. Or maybe, despite all these rationalizations (?) maybe the kid in me just loves expensive toys? Oh well, all work and no play ...
I like Swiss watches, cars, homes,........
Posted by alfletch ® , Jun 17,2000,21:37
cards, but not pens, scotch, whiskey, guns etc,etc,. Hey maybe I'm not as shallow as you guys! :)))
Come on guys, no harm enjoying some good life! (more)
Posted by KC Kwek ® , Jun 17,2000,21:54
It's a matter of balance. All things in moderation, life has too many ups and downs to worry about what others might think of us. regards,
The purpose of Life is to Experience Life (more)
Posted by minuteman ® , Jun 17,2000,23:42
What other explanation is there? We are also here to understand the meaning of giving, For when we die everything we have we leave behind, So in the end we give it all away, I believe God sent us here to experience who and what we are, To realize our full potential, To overcome our own limiting beliefs, I feel sorry for all those who choose to be jealous rather than to learn how to have it all themselves, I feel sorry for the religious leaders who think God would send us to a world of plenty then tell us we cannot enjoy it... HOGWASH, Enjoy it all! Learn to aquire it all! Then teach others to do the same, Give it all away, for when you realize from whence it came you can acquire it all over again. Isn't it funny most who would ridicule us for our Rolex's would rather wallow in jealousy than to ask, how can I get one, Or how can I afford such fine things, or teach me to be successful. They believe they cannot have one and that is there life, I believe I deserve one and that is my life, However, if ever asked Can you teach me I would gladly help... I wear my Rolex with PRIDE, Everyday, All Day... Love Life, it's worth living...
as for me
Posted by jal ® , Jun 17,2000,23:50
As for me, I’ve been studying and selling watches for 25 years. I started at age 12 (my career pre-dates quartz) and at 38 unless I change professions i will never earn the type of money that is associated with Rolex. So I have to save and be very selective. I’ve saved for 5 years for a single piece of jewelry before and have saved for 4 for the rolley but most of that went into a new car after a car accident. So i will continue to save. Shallow is not thinking how or why we do some thing or how it affects others around us. I am willing to make the sacrifices to buy the Rolex and know it is a good long term decision. To me that is not shallow, but good business sense in the long run. Hope there are those that can understand my ramblings. jal
I don't drink, don't smoke, and drive a '99 F-150 pickup (more)
Posted by rob rector ® , Jun 18,2000,00:11
I am what most people would call a redneck from WV. I grew up in WV, my father never made over $5 an hour his entire life. Growing up I never always got what I wanted, but always had what I needed. I now live in San Jose, CA with my wife and 1 year old daughter. I am 32, own my house without a mortgage, drive a ford pickup, and watch WWF and WCW wrestling every week. The only other expensive thing besides watches I like is high end home audio, which is one hold until my daughter gets a little older. I own about 17 watches and everyday at work most people ask to see what I am wearing, because they know it makes me feel good that people can appreciate my hobby. Theyalways say, how can you afford all those watches? I say, I worked hard, paid cash for my house, and now I can enjoy life. Of course getting into a e-commerce startup at the right time had a lot to do with it. I always tell everyone that if you work hard, no one will give you a hard time about how you spend your money or live your life. Thanks for listening.
Maybe the best thread of all!!
Posted by TonyS ® , Jun 18,2000,01:50
Man are we a diverse group or what and then we are Not!! I'm 52 and not even close to satisfaction with Rolex or other toys!! Have driven some of the best, smoked some fine and tasted, well you know what I mean! Also, been on the top of life and almost at the bottom and still it all is too good to give up on! These days I've decided that it matters little or not what some one else thinks. It only matters that 1st of all that I'm not hurting or taking something away from another living thing or person. I'm not abusing myself or some one else but am living this short given existence to the fullest and achieving my complete potential! Also, these days I'm trying to make sure that my net worth is always close by or on my person. Mostly Rolexes! So, to me the thought that we on this forum might be considered SHALLOW, for what we drive, wear, drink or otherwise indulge ourselves in is preposterous. It's people of our make up, strength, guile and gusto for life that makeup for the rest of the poor souls in this world. We are not shallow! I really do like this forum, too much, it's beginning to be a big part of my day. Regards, TonyS
Frans--Thank you for the start of this thread!! Fabulous responses folks!(nt)
Posted by rex ® , Jun 18,2000,02:25
An Excellent Question....
Posted by Chris ® , Jun 18,2000,03:12
That I've often thought about. The real question I suppose is what is the alternative?. I was just realising the other day, the alternative to enjoying the excellence of something engineered to be the finest, is for everyone to be mediocre. All of us could be wearing the overalls of the Chinese communist party, we could all be driving a VW beetle and live in identical apartments in a concrete skyscraper. What would humanity be as awhole if we were all dedicated to mediocrity?
The truly shallow person ...
Posted by Doctor Whom ® , Jun 19,2000,16:54
... isn't the one who simply has nice things, but the person who defines him/herself and the quality of his/her existence solely or primarily by those nice things, and who judges those around him/her by the same standard. In other words, the shallow person can't tell the difference between the main course and the frosting rose on the cake. The onewho dies with the most toys is just as dead.
... can't tell the difference between working hard to earn something and having it just dropped into one's lap, or thinks that it is unfair that others can earn it when he/she doesn't have it presented to him/her on a velvet cushion. Handicapper General wannabees, are you listening? I admit to having gobbled my share of frosting roses, but I remember that they are just frosting roses and that if you make them the main course, various bad things will happen to you. Nice possessions cannot take the place of your achievements in life, your relationships with the people around you, or, most importantly, your walk with God. Nor do they have to. By the way, I drink sparingly and don't smoke at all.
Platinum's Forever!
Posted by DAC ® , Jun 06,2000,14:55
I had been looking for MANY years for a Platinum. I wanted a single quick, a 84/85 model. and wasn't even thinking of a double quick. WOW, I looked and looked and LOOKED and found NOTHING! Not a single mid-eighties Platinum. Then one day I happened to be in a Jeweler in Baltimore who was an authorized Rolex dealer. (The guy had been looking for a gently used Platinum for me since 1989.) he pulls me aside and says..... I can get you a Tridor day/date for around 10K NEW ! Well..... I had also liked those as well. Being frustrated after years of looking (by now it was 1994)........ I decided to say yes and try to forget about the Plat.
So he got me the watch. BRAND NEW. Papers, everything. Instead of a YG bezel I had them put a WG on. With a Rhodium dial. It was smashing. I know TURFERS don't like the Tridor. But, If you had seen mine, you would have loved it. My boyfriend now wears it. Anyway, you asked about the Plat. but this was part of the story too. After 5 years I became frustrated again.... I couldn't get the Plat out of my mind. (YES., this is a Rolex obsession, admit it). So... I decided to go on a search for one again. Once again I looked and looked and LOOKED, calling every dealer who old pre-owned Rolex. I even emailed James Dowling to ask if he could help......did he know where I could find one ? No luck. This went on for 2 more years. I have to laugh now as I think back on all my notes and all the phone calls and people I spoke with. I even contacted Time Antiques in Singapore, nothing. Nobody had a line on a mid-80's Plat. Yes there were diamond and ruby encrusted Plat's if I wanted one of those, their bands stretched and no papers. Lots of those in Florida. No thanks.
So on and on it went. By now I was thinking, OK... I'll take a double quick if I can afford. it....still none showed up and jewelers were telling me that the white metal watches were so HOT that when they did come on the market, they were snatched up instantly.
AND the prices by now were waaaay through the roof. When I had started this whole thing the prices were around 12K. Yeah ! try to get a used Plat. for that price now ! AND nobody wanted them. Back then dealers were telling me that they couldn't find them because so few people bought them. Therefore, there were verrry few used ones on the market. I was about to give up again but I made one last call to a Jeweler in Phila. Somehow I hooked up with this guy who said...Plainum ?....NO Problem ! I laughed to myself and thought, Yeah right, we'll see. In a few weeks I spoke with him again and he told me he had a perfect one, no diamonds, tight band, just flat out perfection. at a price I could afford.
Of course I was ecstatic..... Well, that was short lived when he called back the next day to say that as he was taking it apart to examine, he noticed something weird about the pins. Turns out... it was am Italian fake made to perfection in solid platinum ! I was glum for 3 days after that. BUT he called back the next week and said had indeed found it. The next day... I jumped in the car and sped off to Philly. And yes, there it was... in all it's elusive perfection. A simple Platinum Day/date with a rose dial and white romans. No diamonds, no band stretch, no heavy dings..... just plain simple perfection. Even my boyfriend, who at the time didn't care to much for white metals, gasped when he saw it. It was a U serial number, a double quick..... more than I was able to afford but my boyfriend REALLY wanted my Tridor and so he bought it from me for a good price and somehow I was able to pull the deal off.
After so many years of looking I couldn't believe I finally had it and was in a DAZE for weeks...... a regular Rolex stupor. So, there you have it and now I'm a happy girl.... AND ... I still get to enjoy my old Tridor because I see it on my boyfriends wrist all the time. Long story I know, BUT you asked. Hope you don't think I'm too crazy..... This forum may be the ONLY place I could tell this story, anywhere else and they would think I lost my mind.
My Submariner review.... long
Posted by Frans Hens ® , Apr 08,2000,12:28
Way back in June 1980 I decided to give myself a little reward for landing a new job. A year earlier, a little story about the launch of a new Cartier, the Santos Dumont, had caught my eye. But I also liked Rolex, for various reasons. To make a long story short, the fact that Cartier offered a very elaborate, lifelong guarantee made me buy it. However, with the purchase of a Rolex model 16610, better known as the Submarine Date in stainless steel I have corrected this error of my ways.
After being on a waiting list for no less than 4 months, I received the phone call that put an enormous smile on my face: Sir, your watch has arrived. Two days later I managed to take the afternoon off, rush to the bank, get the money and rush to the dealer. Before entering, I took a deep breath, checked my wallet once more and entered. As I enquired a few times about my watch, the sales lady recognized me and asked me to take a seat while she spoke in the intercom (the watches are kept in a vault in the basement of the store), to have my watch sent up by a little lift. When she removed the jewel from it's velvet cloth, my heart raced: finally! It was much better than the picture from the catalogue or any other picture. What a watch! The band was adjusted and a huge sum changed hands, now I was the proud owner of a Submariner.
The following is a review from my point of view, but I have tried to keep it as objective as possible. Although most posters here are familiar with Rolex watches, the packaging, etc., I thought it nice to cover everything. The watch under review is the Rolex Submariner Date, model number 16610. It's predecessor, the model 6204 was the grand daddy of all diver's watches, and the model 16610 is the latest incarnation.
The watch comes in a green leather box, covered by a cardboard outer box with grey greenish stone design. The latter, of course, is nothing special but I still mention it. Inside the box is the watch on a tan suede like pillow and attached to it are two hang tags, one red stating the watch is a chronometer with a Rolex crown hologram on it and one green stating the serial number (A795XXX), the model number and the band type number (93250). With the watch came an Oyster manual, a Submariner manual, the little anchor and a guarantee/chronometer form in a small green leather wallet, together with the translation of the guarantee. The band is of the new type, with solid end-links! The Submariner manual still mentions the previous band, type 93150. As an extra service I received a 141-page book, titled L'univers des Montres.
The watch itself is 12.4 mm thick and the bezel is 40 mm in diameter and is slightly larger than the case. The links are 3.8 mm thick and the watch weighs around 134 grams. Although everyone mentions that the ends of the lugs are sharp, with this watch this is not a problem. Because of the angle of the (solid) end-links and the thickness of the first link, the sharp ends of the lugs will touch your wrist. On the deep black dial, there is Swiss Made at the six 'o clock position. The bezel turns anti-clockwise in hal minute steps. Under the glass, the Luminova coating inside the markers is spotless and even, and the hands line up perfectly. The bevelled edge of the crystal is polished, so that is feels round to the touch. The date window, however, is plain and undecorated. This, along with the fact that I find the Luminova coating less bright and powerful that Tritium coating is my only point of critique on the dial. The indentations on the bezel area little rough and the click mechanism causes a little horizontal play, but we must remember this is a diving watch that also has to be operated while wearing gloves.